DR: The green fireball was a hell of a mystery, that's for sure.
TT: But as far as you know, they never acquired any instrumented data?
DR: They never what?
TT: Like triangulation or anything?
DR: Oh, no. Well, the damn things went so fast, you see.
TT: Yeah.
DR: See, I lived in Albuquerque. And I was sittin' on my back patio; me and my wife saw one. It came across - probably above Sandia - and going like a bat out of hell. It was green, and scared the hell out of us. Because we'd already been reading about them.
TT: Yeah. Was there any sound with it?
DR: No sound - no.
TT: That's the thing about those things.
DR: Yeah.
TT: …how can they be going through the atmosphere without…
DR: Yeah.
TT: …making a hell of a lot of sound?
DR: Well, you've read all about the big meeting at [the] Atomic Energy Commission?
TT: Oh - on the subject?
DR: Yeah.
TT: Yes.
DR: We were sitting in the meeting, and they brought in all these scientists.
TT: Yes.
DR: And here walks in Edward Teller and set down across the table from me. I almost fell out of my chair. But he had a theory on it.
TT: Um-hmm. Was it a good one - Teller's?
DR: Well, not too good. I well remember, he said it was - he thought it was a - the name slips my mind now. He thought it was a possibility coming from Russia.
TT: Oh, yeah.
DR: Experimenting.
TT: Like the V-2 or something like that?
DR: No, he - pencil gun - it was called a pencil gun; I'd never heard of that.
TT: Pencil gun - really?
DR: With many stages. So he figured they'd burn out one stage and then another one would take force, and so -
TT: Yeah, I'd never heard of that one - "pencil gun."
DR: Well, that he just pulled it out of the air, so I don't know.
TT: I'm just about ready. There was some photographic activity on April 27th and the 24th of May.
DR: Of what year?
TT: 1950.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: Yeah, 19…
DR: Did they get [a photograph] - of the green fireball?
TT: Well [reading] - simultaneous sightings by both cameras were not made, so that no information was gained. On August 30th, 1950, during a Bell Aircraft missile launching, aerial phenomenon (sic) were observed over Holloman by several individuals. However, neither Land-Air nor project personnel were notified and therefore no results were acquired.
DR: Oh, yeah.
TT: Here's the - apparently the Cambridge Research Laboratory was involved? That makes sense - Cambridge Research Laboratory?
DR: Oh, yeah - I've heard of them, yeah.
TT: Do you remember a guy named Mirarchi?
DR: What?
TT: Mirarchi, Dr. A.O. Mirarchi-
DR: Oh, no – I don't know that.
TT: –ring a bell? [Pause] Yeah, okay. Well, anyway–
DR: Yeah.
TT: Here's some other stuff I'll leave with you.
DR: Oh. Well, I'd like that.
TT: You know, I'm sort of it was something– (?)
DR: Can you leave any of this stuff with me?
TT: Sure – you can have everything I gave you.
DR: Oh great, great. I'd like to have it. Especially this old report of mine – so long ago.
TT: Yeah, must be something to see your signature from…
DR: [laughs]
TT: …50 years ago.
DR: [laughs] Yeah, that wasn't yesterday!
TT: Can't remember what you were signing, right?
DR: Yeah, yep – that wasn't yesterday.
TT: Yeah, okay. Um, can you just give me a "one, two, three"?
DR: Are you ready to start?
TT: I am.
DR: You don't mind if I record it, too, do you?
TT: Not at all. If you'd like, I can send you a copy of this, too.
DR: Oh, will you?
TT: Yeah.
DR: Oh great, great.
TT: I can send you a video copy if you want.
DR: Oh, wonderful. Well that's better. I'll turn this off.
TT: Okay – how about if we start out with your career. Where were you born? Are you from Utah, here?
DR: Yes, yes. I was born out in the valley, here [Logan, Utah]. My father was a schoolteacher and a farmer. So I was raised on a farm.
TT: Farming and teaching, huh?
DR: Yeah.
TT: Heh. So, you must have been in World War II? Did you serve in World War II?
DR: Yes.
TT: At what point did you go in to the – [military service]?
DR: Well, I went to the Utah State University over here, and got a commission in the Army. I was in Washington D.C. studying law when I was called into the service. I had just about finished my law and I was preparing for the Bar Examination when I was called into the service. So I stayed in all the time. And I was with the Office of Special Investigation with the Air Force.
TT: So, when you initially went into the Service where were you stationed?
DR: To begin with?
TT: Yeah.
DR: Well, first – North Carolina. Then Hawaii – I was with the Pacific Ocean Area Headquarters at Hawaii. I was headquarters Commandant for General Richardson who was [in] command of the Pacific Ocean Area. Then, when the war was over, I came back [and] was transferred – that was with the Army – I was transferred to the Air Force. And that's when I got into the OSI.
TT: Oh – in '47?
DR: The Office of Special Investigation.
TT: In '47?
DR: Yes.
TT: Yeah. So you were doing intelligence work throughout that whole time?
DR: Yes, it was set up – The Office of Special Investigation was set up for the Air Force, copied after the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And they brought over a General Carrol who was J. Edgar Hoover's right-hand man. And he stayed. He came in as a colonel and finished his career as a three star general – tremendous man.
TT: Yeah.
DR: And he set up actually an organization copied after FBI, investigating all major events occurring with them and affecting the Air Force, which included all counter-intelligence. So, that's how we got into the UFO deal.
TT: Um, that was set up out in Washington – so you were one of the branch offices? How did the structure work?
DR: Well, the Office of Special Investigation was under the Inspector General of the Air Force, and it was centrally located. And we had, I guess, 24 different districts throughout the Unites States, and you had a commander in charge of each one. And when I was transferred to the Air Force, I became the commander of 17th district at Albuquerque, New Mexico, which covered the Air Force bases in Arizona, western Texas and New Mexico. And that's how we got into the UFO investigations.
TT: Just sort of focusing on the Air Force here – what was your function? Did you run that office then? How many people were under you?
DR: Well, I had five detachments – one in Texas, two in New Mexico, and two in Arizona. And we conducted [investigated?] all major offenses affecting the Air Force – fraud against the government, and counter-intelligence, and background investigations. And we actually did the same thing for the Air Force that the FBI was doing for the civilian organiza – [trails off] – or world.
TT: So you were doing the FBI's job within the ranks of the Air Force.
DR: Within the Air Force.
TT: Yeah.
DR: That's a good way to put it. Course, my first assignment was District Commander of District 17. That's where I got started.
TT: Okay. Could you talk a little bit about the transition of how the Air Force went from a CIC to OSI?
DR: Well, as much as I can tell you. When the Air Force was organized and set up as a separate service, they took part of CIC which become (sic) OSI. So, some of the agents who were CIC automatically become (sic) OSI. So, all of my detachments was (sic) manned by personnel who had been CIC. With few exceptions – the commanders and things like that – which wasn't so.
TT: So that was a structural change within the Air Force?
DR: Yes, yes. And, of course, many districts had former FBI agents working for them. We recruited an awful lot of former FBI agents.
TT: Oh. For their experience?
DR: Yes, experience. They knew the ropes.
TT: What happened to the CIC files at Air Force facilities?
DR: Oh, I don't know whether I can tell you that. I don't remember that we got any of 'em. I assume that CI – the Army CIC, (?) uh, retained all the files. That's my guess.
TT: Yeah, okay.
DR: I don't think we had any.
TT: Apparently – this is coming from Jan – apparently there are no files that he's been able to locate.
DR: I don't know of any – I don't.
TT: Okay. He wanted to know if they transferred over to OSI, or, or did they go to the Army?
DR: Well that's a good question. I've never thought of it before. But as far as I know, we never got any of 'em.
TT: Um, okay. So, were you getting UFO reports right from the beginning at OSI?
DR: Was I what?
TT: I mean, this was, what – 1947 – we're talking about right?
DR: Yes. Well, 1948 when I was transferred, yes.
TT: '48, okay. So that's when the office was established at Kirtland?
DR: Yes.
TT: At that time was it called Kirtland?
DR: Was what?
TT: Were you stationed at Kirtland?
DR: Oh yes, yes. That was my first assignment out there from Washington D.C.
TT: Okay. Were you aware of the green fireballs at that time? Was that one of the reasons why the office was set up there? No? You know - the green fireball situation?
DR: Oh no, no. It was set up all over the United States to take care of any investigation. And of course, that just fell into our lap, that uh-
TT: Yeah.
DR: That uh –
TT: Was that an issue from the beginning?
DR: Yes, yes. I went there in the fall of 1948. And I would say right from the beginning till I was transferred in 1950 to the Pentagon. And we did investigate an awful lot of reports of flying saucers or UFOs – whatever you want to call them – and green fireballs.
TT: Were you involved in any of the investigations at Killeen Air Base?
DR: Well, involved only that I would direct it. I didn't go out and do any of the personal investigation, but I would direct what had to be done, and I, of course, reviewed all the reports, which I had to review before they were signed. When they were signed, they went to Washington and one copy to the commander of the base where the investigation took place.
TT: Did you know about the night-light sightings at Killeen Base? You know - Camp Hood? At Camp Hood – you know Killeen Base? Did you know that there were sightings in mid-'49? Were you aware of that?
DR: No, no. No, I wasn't.
TT: Well, connected to that, did you know that in '49 – I think this was in Texas, too – that the Army set up a UFO observation network?
DR: No, I don't remember that I did.
TT: I'm not sure they were ever successful in doing that. I know there was talk of it, and people wondered if it – you know.
DR: No, I don't know. I don't remember if I did know.
TT: Let's talk a bit about the green fireball sightings. That was an ongoing phenomenon the whole time you were at Kirtland?
DR: Well, soon after I got there, when the reports started occurring. And there was (sic) lots of 'em. Lots of [unintelligible] as you probably know. Particularly up towards Los Alamos.
TT: Yeah, it's odd that they were occurring around that facility.
DR: Yes, and that caused lots of concern. And that was, as you probably know, the reason that they held the big conference at Los Alamos to try and resolve what it was.
TT: When was that? In 1950?
DR: Well offhand I don't recall, but I'd say it was 1949.
TT: Okay.
DR: And of course they invited all the intelligence and counter-intelligence agencies to Los Alamos where they held the big meeting. And they brought in, oh – I'd say four or five of the top scientists to listen to what had been observed. And, of course, my men, and that – and the FBI, and the Army all explained what their people had seen – where it was and what they seen, and described it. And then the scientists asked many questions. And of course, as I mentioned, it was very interesting to have Edward Teller walk in and set down across the table from me – one of the greatest scientists – who developed a lot of the – well, I guess most of – the hydrogen bomb. He was the man back of the whole thing. And he did have a few – quite a few – questions to ask. But they were I think, uh, disturbed, as well as everyone else, with no particular answer for it.
TT: Did they believe it was connected to the Los Alamos facility?
DR: Well, that was the speculation. And as I mentioned, I was interested in Edward Teller's view on it. He says, well, at best he could come up with, what I – he said was "a pencil gun." I don't know where he got the term or whether he had ever heard of it. But it was a – he figured it was a possibility coming from Soviet Union – that it would have stages. Uh, one – one stage would burn out and the other would take on. And that was his – which is what he wondered about.
TT: Yeah, so what you were seeing was maybe the final stage of that?
DR: Well yeah, if it burned out, that was the final stage. And, of course, I guess most of these did burn out, as I remember. The one that I observed did burn out, or it was gone all at once. But it was– [trails off]
TT: You mean it just disappeared?
DR: Well it was green, and it was traveling from north to south, right over Sandia base, as near as we could tell. We were sitting on our back porch, my wife and I, and uh – and we observed it. It was going awful fast, but it – before it got out of sight – it seemed to burn out all at once.
TT: Hmm. Yeah, well they never did find any –
DR: No, no, nothing was ever found. And of course Dr. LaPaz spent a lot of – took a lot of air samples with our aircraft to see if he could find anything in the air that would describe anything, but it was always negative.
TT: There was some talk, I know, about somebody having noticed that, or having found copper particles in the air. That was a Dr. William Crozier.
DR: Oh, was there? I didn't know about that.
TT: Yeah, never heard about that?
DR: No.
TT: So nothing was ever detected in the air, huh?
DR: As far as Dr. LaPaz – while I was there – the trips he made in our aircraft taking samples of the air – he didn't find anything.
TT: Okay. Um, what did LaPaz think these things were?
DR: Well, his speculation was a lot like the rest of ours. It was just one of those things where he didn't have a clear answer to it.
TT: Yeah. He was sure dedicated in pursuing it.
DR: Oh, he was very dedicated man, yes.
TT: What was he like? You were personal friends with him, is that true? You were personal friends with LaPaz?
DR: Well, not socially, but we were good friends because he would come to my office, oh, I would say some weeks two or three times. And so we'd see him, and he attended a lot of our meetings, as a man that I admired very much.
TT: Were you working – did you have a professional relationship with him, or just associated with him?
DR: Well, nothing – he was under contract to the Air Force.
TT: Okay.
DR: But he was so interested – he wanted to work with us. So he did everything for us free, gratis. But we were investigators, a subject that he was widely interested in. So he was sort of an advisor to us all the time. And [he] did work with a lot of our agents in some of the research that was done. When we set up stations to observe the sky to see if anything happened, he was involved in that all the time.
TT: Yeah, and were those ever successful?
DR: No.
TT: Why weren't they?
DR: Why what?
TT: Why weren't they successful?
DR: Well, you send someone out to look for it, at night, and you set there all night and not see it – the next morning, maybe there's one. Something like that sees. (?) So, uh – it's one of those things. You are lucky if you go out to look for it and find one.
TT: Yeah, it's the same with all UFO sightings.
DR: Yes. [Both chuckle.]
TT: What was LaPaz like? Give us some background on Lincoln LaPaz.
DR: Well, I always thought that maybe he had Spanish background. He kind of impressed me that way, but I don't know. He was a very friendly guy. I say a very intelligent man, and very eager. Lots of ambition. And it seems like he was interested in anything that come (sic) out of the sky – might say that.
TT: Yeah, he had been pursuing meteorites for quite a while, right?
DR: Yes, yes. But a very, very pleasant man to talk to and deal with.
TT: So you weren't, you weren't personal friends with him? You didn't go to parties together and so forth?
DR: Yeah that's right. We were just good friends.
TT: Okay. Um, ah [unintelligible]. How extensive was the investigation of the UFO's or green fireballs during the time that you were there? What was the attitude at OSI about this whole phenomenon?
DR: Well, it's kinda hard to say. It's hard to investigate something of that kind. You'd investigate to write down exactly what they saw and all the details of it. But that's about as far as it could go, was talk to the people that did observe 'em. And we, of course, put those all in our OSI reports and sent them to Washington.
TT: Did you have any interaction with the projects at Wright Field? At ATIC?
DR: No – no we, we didn't. We heard a lot about it, there. But I assume that our headquarters sent our reports to them. That's my assumption. I'm sure they must have.
TT: So you never had any contact with any of the Grudge–?
DR: No, no none at all, none at all from out there, no.
TT: Um, what did LaPaz think these green fireballs were?
DR: Well, he was just about as puzzled as the rest of us. It was something that stimulated his thinking, and he wasn't satisfied until he found the answer, which I don't think he ever did. Well, I'm sorry he didn't.
TT: Yeah.
DR: But it certainly stimulated him.
TT: Yeah. Were there any indications that they were U.S. experiments?
DR: Well, only talk. Could it be something so super-secret that we were experimenting with? But that was only talk. We never knew of anything.
TT: Yeah – or Teller's comment that they could be Russian, well–
DR: Yeah.
TT: Heh. That, that leaves a lot of questions. [Both chuckle] You weren't out there in fifty-four, but they sort of staged a comeback in the early 50s – green fireballs did.
DR: Uh, say that again.
TT: Well, I mean, the fireballs were in the late '40s, maybe through '51, right?
DR: Yes, [unintelligible] until the time I left. I never did follow it after that. And I left the middle of 1950.
TT: Yeah, apparently they made a small comeback in the middle of fifty-four, and LaPaz was saying that they were being reported in Alaska and Canada.
DR: Oh, I didn't know that.
TT: Yeah.
DR: I've always wondered about it, but it was outside of my field. After I left I went to the Pentagon, so–
TT: Okay. Here's one. In about '55, Hynek told Isabel Davis that LaPaz was out of favor with the Air Force. Do you have any comments on that? Again, you weren't out there at the time but – you know who Hynek is, J. Allen Hynek?
DR: Well, I can't believe that he would be, but who knows? Ah, maybe he was too inquisitive about something and that may have put him out of favor, but he certainly did cooperate with us 100%, and was very eager to help us.
TT: Following Kirtland – you went to the Pentagon?
DR: Yes.
TT: And then what were your duties there?
DR: Well, I was doing staff work then relating to all major investigations affecting the Air Force. I knew – the uh, UFOs or the fireballs – I never heard any more about 'em. That is, nothing official.
TT: Yeah, for the remainder of the time you were there.
DR: Yeah, I'd read the newspaper about 'em, but that's all. Course it was handled pretty secretly, so I wouldn't have had a reason to know.
TT: Yeah, it was classified.
DR: Yeah, yeah.
TT: In fact, you know, it wasn't until the '70s that the Blue Book files were released.
DR: The what?
TT: It wasn't until the 1970's that a lot of that information began to be released.
DR: Oh, yeah. Yes, right.
TT: Following –
DR: Yeah, back then, like so many things, it was – as I recall, most of these reports were – they were all confidential or secret. I don't know whether as – I don't remember of any being top secret but, but they were handled pretty carefully.
TT: Do you remember a Dr. Joseph Kaplan?
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: You do. Could you talk about him a little bit?
DR: Well, it's so long ago. But he was, as you may know – as I recall – an advisor to the Air Force on certain scientific matters. And, as I recall, he was sent to Kirtland. And, again – I believe this is correct – he and I and Dr. LaPaz, and one of my other officers went to this meeting at Los Alamos. And he was in on the meeting. He was a very intelligent man – that was my impression, and of course a top scientist. But that's about all I know. I think Dr. LaPaz already was well-acquainted with him, and so he came – to look into the situation. But, that's all I know.
TT: Yeah. Apparently Cabell had ordered Kaplan to [do] a project that was kept secret from Grudge at the time under Cabell's order. You didn't know that that was the case at the time?
DR: No, I don't know. I just know that he came there. And, as I recall, he went to the meeting with us – he and I and my officer, and LaPaz.
TT: Did you also know a Theodore Von Karman?
DR: Well I've heard a lot about him, yeah. I never did know him. I rec– [trails off]
TT: Okay. You met Bill Moore at some point. Was that during the Roswell investigation?
DR: Well, I would say – and I'm going to guess – it was about sometime in 1963 after I retired, and he came from California. We spent two hours, I guess, down at my office talking about the same thing you and I are [talking about]. And he had lunch with us. And I well remember my wife asking if he'd ever heard of this particular book on UFOs, and he says, "Oh, I wrote it!" [both chuckle] And he went out to his car and got a copy and endorsed (?) it to my daughter. But we had a very pleasant visit. And I had quite a bit of correspondence with him from time to time. And I did see him on several TV shows.
TT: Yeah, that's one person I'd – [break in tape continuity.]
DR: – we talked about maybe flying saucers or – [break in tape continuity]
DR: I don't offhand remember all we talked about – maybe flying saucers or UFOs in general. But he called me from Canada, and we talked, I guess, for over an hour. But then we had quite a bit of correspondence after that which I do have copies of, if you're interested [in] anything we talked about.
TT: We're primarily interested in that early – well, our focus is on '47 to '69, you know.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: That's in that early history, up until the point when the Air Force got out of it.
DR: Yes.
TT: You know, with the Condon Committee.
DR: Yeah. Well, my correspondence with him would have been in the 1960's, as I remember.
TT: With Bill Moore?
DR: Well, with Moore and, uh –
TT: And Friedman.
DR: And Friedman, yes.
TT: Let me pause for a second here. What does he know?
DR: [Laughs]
TT: What was he involved in?
DR: Well –
TT: Maybe he's got Lincoln LaPaz's files in his [unintelligible].
DR: [Laughing] Yeah. Well, I came after the Roswell incident. I came out there after that. And, of course– [trails off]
TT: Were you aware of that at the time?
DR: No, I wasn't. And one of my top officers was down at Roswell at the time, you know. You've probably heard of Sheridan Cavitt, have you?
TT: Yeah.
DR: Well, he was one of my top officers, and they've always – the people I've talked to – have always suspected that he was holding out. That he was – his lips were sealed. And, he's told me – and I have lots of correspondence here with him – where he says, "I don't know anything. " He says, "If I, if I'd have known, I would have told you." But that may not be so – I don't know. If you're sworn to secrecy, maybe he's got to keep – maybe his lips are sealed, I don't know.
TT: Um – so he was stationed there in '47?
DR: Yes, he was my detachment commander at Roswell when I took over. And, of course, he was there at the time of the – this Roswell incident. But he said he didn't – He'd been accused of going with the Provost Marshall there out to observe the result of the crash.
TT: Was that Rickett or something?
DR: Well Rickett worked for him. And he was an enlisted agent, and a fine agent that – worked for Cavitt. But they accused Cavitt of going out [with] this Provost Marshall with him to – but he said, "No," he didn't do that.
TT: Yeah.
DR: So he didn't know anything, and I have – I don't know anything about, other than what we've discussed.
TT: Yeah, well, nobody seems to.
DR: Yeah.
TT: [unintelligible] Um, what else can we discuss – there was only one sort of conference on the green fireballs, and that was at Los Alamos, huh?
DR: That they were talked about at – I mean, see, our intelligence agencies and counter-intelligence agencies all met once a month. And so did the Army and the Air Force and FBI. And that would always come up during those meetings. But that was the one main big conference that I know of, and the only one that occurred when I was there. Yeah.
[apparent break in conversation continuity]
TT: How is it you ended up being – ? I mean, how is it - ? Were you trained for intelligence work at–? Is that what you were doing during the war?
DR: Well, to a certain extent. 'Course, I had studied law and business, and I had been intelligence officer for a regiment, and things of that kind. Of course, after that my experience during World War II led me a little into intelligence all the time. But I wasn't specially trained. I didn't go to any special schools for it.
TT: How come they appointed you, then, out at Kirtland?
DR: Well, of course, the district that you're appointed to has many investigations: Fraud against the government, which I was really familiar with; background investigations; major criminal investigations; all of those things tie right in with your law background and everything. So, the UFO – is something that, just counter-intelligence. Ah, this comes into your district, and you may not be specially trained for that, but you're trained as an investigator, so – And of course I had been to quite a few schools. And that – later on I was commandant of the Air Force investigative school in Washington D.C. – but that was later on.
TT: Was (sic) there any particular UFO cases that you remember during your tenure at–? Do you remember any cases that stand out in your memory at the time, back when you were at–?
DR: Oh, I – along this line? Yes. Well, I remember one we investigated was – it finally got to us, I'm guessing – a couple of months after it occurred. But some Mexican sheepherders down southern part of New Mexico had observed a flying saucer that come in (sic) and set down, according to them. And burned all the grass underneath it. And that's the story by the time we got it – to it. A couple of months later, there was no signs of the burning of the grass, but the Mexicans, the sheep– sheepherders – were pretty firm about what they had seen. That was one [investigation] Uh, another one was – that turned out to be, yeah, of no consequence. Ah, some of the Indians in New Mexico were observing lights at night. But after we investigated it, and it was up in the mountains where they were seeing it and it was determined that it was white rock of the mountains getting a shine from the moon is what we considered. But a lot of 'em that we went – investigated – when you get to the bottom of them, there's nothing to it. But then a lot of the other ones, there was no answer to it. As you know, like a lot of 'em, there's – [trails off]
TT: Yeah.
DR: We had quite a number where Air Force pilots had observed – and those were in our reports – where they had observed. One time I remember a formation flew right along with him – that's a report he gave.
TT: And was it your job to interview the pilots?
DR: Oh, yes. Oh, yes – you bet.
TT: What was your impression of these pilots' reports? I mean, you'd assume that they'd know what they're looking at.
DR: Well, they'd have to be awful intelligent men. You can say generally they'd be very intelligent or they wouldn't be a pilot. So, they had no reason not to tell the truth. So, I'm convinced that they saw something. Now, that's about all you can say about it. They said they saw these flying formations right along with them and, uh, they must have saw something. But who knows? If you could take a picture of them then you'd have something to go on.
TT: I mean, how many of those reports were you getting during that time? Were you getting a lot of those reports – pilot reports?
DR: Well, quite a number I'd say – quite a number. A number – another one where uh, we thought we had photographed a green fireball in it. On the tape – on the film – it looked like really a fireball. But after it was finally analyzed – I think it was analyzed in Washington – it was a thumbprint on the film.
TT: You're kidding.
DR: It had all the indications of a flying saucer. I'm trying to think of some others that we – and there were so many of them that I – It's been so long ago, and I really don't recall any others.
TT: So tell us a little more about your sighting that green fireball. How long did it last – [did] your sighting last?
DR: Oh. Well, it would be very short time, because we observed it over this – over to the, the left – over to the north, going like a bat out o' hell – really. But it was a green fireball. It was below the mountain; it was above Sandia. Appeared to be above Sandia – it may be it'd been beyond them.
TT: So you could see the mountain – the mountain was behind the fireball?
DR: Well, as I remember, yes. And it didn't seem to be – to have many altitudes. But it was going awful fast, and it – I would say from where we were to us, it would seem about the size of volleyball. That was about the size, from where we were. And how far it was – 10 15, 20, 30 miles – I don't know. But it was certainly very obvious. Green, going fast, and then burnt out.
TT: What sort of green? Bright green, Kelly green?
DR: Yes – pale green, I'd say.
TT: Pale green.
DR: Yeah, yeah.
TT: Did it look like it was fire – on fire?
DR: Well, it was just awful bright and going fast. I didn't see any flames coming out or anything like that. It just – it just a ball.
TT: Um-hmm. How long did it last?
DR: Oh well it, I guess – I'm guessing only – but maybe two minutes.
TT: Oh, yeah.
DR: Because we saw it from there and disappear over here, when all at once it went out.
TT: Was it, uh – horizontal to the Earth or– ?
DR: Yeah, yeah completely.
TT: Was it.
DR: Yes, completely.
TT: So from that you would assume it's not a meteorite?
DR: Oh yeah, very definitely. Yeah, very definitely. It's something that you can't explain. Yeah. And of course, my wife and I both saw it, and so –
TT: Two. So you watched it for two minutes. Was that a normal time for to see these things, or were people seeing them for shorter duration?
DR: Well, of course that's the only one I – I ever did see. And we, uh, we reported it. That's in some of the OSI reports. But it's just like - very similar to all the other reports: The color, the elevation and everything seemed to all fit about the same.
TT: What was the attitude in the Air Force in coordin – [trails off] during the time that you were out in the – in the early years? What was the attitude in the Air Force towards this phenomenon – towards the whole UFO phenomenon?
DR: Well –
TT: What was the attitude you got at OSI?
DR: OSI was pretty concerned about it, particularly when Los Alamos became so concerned – they were really concerned. And, as far as we were concerned, we were very concerned. And my immediate commander was General Carroll in Washington D.C. [switch to second side of tape] – I know that he was concerned. He come out at one time, on a regular visit. And I remember telling him about 'em, and he was very interested. Ah – other than that, I don't know. I assume the Air Force was pretty much concerned, but I never did know what went on at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. I never did get any information on that. Later in my career I spent three years at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and knew a lot about intelligence and counter-intelligence activity that occurred there, but I never heard anything about this subject. So, I don't know whether they had those – the results of the crash of the flying saucer – whether they had it there, and whether their little green men that they talked about were there. If they were, I never did see 'em. [Chuckles heartily]
TT: [unintelligible] You had to – you know – poke around or something, I don't know.
DR: [Both laugh] Yes.
TT: You've been sort of looking at this phenomenon for fifty years, what's your attitude about it these days?
DR: About?
TT: About the phenomenon in general?
DR: Well, I would say this: [Pause] I'm not convinced that there are UFOs; I'm convinced that people are seeing something that they are accused of being UFOs. Some of the testimony of the people that have observed 'em, and my own observation – it's something you can't just laugh about and forget about. They did – people that [were] honest and trustworthy – make awful sincere, honest reports on what they saw. Ah, I don't know. I'm not convinced that there are, um, flying saucers. Yet, I'm – I can't understand, if there isn't a strange phenomenon going on, why people are seeing 'em. Not only here in New Mexico, or – or the Southwest – but all over the world. They're – they've observed them all over the world. So, it's strange. But then it's strange, if there is such a thing – why haven't we had concrete evidence to show that there is? That would be my thoughts.
TT: Yeah, it is odd too that the whole thing began during the time that we developed nuclear capability.
DR: Yes, yes.
TT: And you know, the green fireballs being down [wind?] at Los Alamos.
DR: Yes.
TT: You know, that is curious, too.
DR: Yeah, it, it's a strange thing. There isn't an answer to it yet, as far as I know. You can't dismiss it, because of the reports you get from good witnesses. But then on the other hand, why haven't we got the concrete evidence, somehow. A photograph, or really, a crash.
TT: Yeah.
DR: I have lots of reservations about the Roswell incident. I doubt that it occurred, myself. I can't believe that it occurred and it went to Washington, and went to Wright-Pat. And those of us who are in counter-intelligence and intelligence – if that did occur; we'd have had rumors of it, somehow. But I never did hear a rumor from within the Air Force that there was anything like that going on, so –
TT: Yeah [unintelligible]
DR: But I hope there can be a resolution to this, and put it to rest. Or, if there is something to this, let's make an all-out effort to resolve it. Because if there are UFOs coming from, from other, uh, galaxies, they have some scientific information that would be awful valuable to us.
TT: Right. I mean, we can't go there.
DR: Yes.
TT: Heh.
DR: Heh. They may do (sic). Maybe they do. It may be a big step ahead of where we are in our efforts to observe the Universe – everything. It may be way beyond that.
TT: Um, yeah. Um, I'm running out of questions here. Anything you want to add?
DR: No, I can't think of anything other than that. I know that Karl Pflock did make what I consider to be a pretty thorough investigation.
TT: Yeah, he did.
DR: And he found an answer to what might have been the Roswell incident.
TT: Yeah, Moore too, the – the man we interviewed, Charles Moore. He's pretty convinced it was, ah–
DR: Yes, yes.
TT: a Mogul balloon so–
DR: Yes.
TT: Yeah, in fact Karl had worked with Charles Moore to –
DR: Alrighty.
TT: to come up with that theory.
DR: Oh, yes. Oh, I see.
TT: Moore is one who put the balloons up there back then.
DR: Yes.
TT: You know – I mean – and he knew where their balloons are at any– [unintelligible]
DR: Well, you see, they have laughed about the fact [of] it being a weather balloon. Well, this wasn't a weather balloon according to Karl. This was a radar operation to observe what was going on in Russia and around the other side of the world. And that makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me that an ordinary weather balloon would come down and they'd rush it off to Washington. Or hush it up.
TT: Yeah, not only that, but this thing had a huge long radar array.
DR: Yes.
TT: [unintelligible] reflectors.
DR: But it's certainly an interesting subject, isn't it? I'm delighted that you're taking an interest in it. I hope that you're able to dig up something that will be concrete.
TT: Well, we'll see. [Both chuckle.] We'll see [laughs].
DR: Yes.
TT: Nobody's been very successful at that for fifty years or so.
DR: Yeah. Well, I'd be interested in what your views are. Have you gone into this pretty thorough? How do you feel about the whole subject?
TT: Well, I don't know – the whole subject's a bit frustrating after a while and–
DR: Uh-huh.
TT: –and been dealing with, so, I guess my interest has shifted to the early history.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: The one thing about the early history is nobody can argue that a phenomenon exists.
DR: Nope [with mirth] - you're right.
TT: So, there's no question that there's a history to the phenomenon.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: And that studying history can provide some clues. You know – certainly to what our responses were to the phenomenon – how we responded to it. And maybe how the political and institutions responded to it – like the Air Force.
DR: Yes.
TT: I mean, maybe if you looked at the history long enough, all of a sudden you – you'll become aware that there had to have been other studies. And then you have some way of locating those studies. Do you follow me?
DR: Oh, yeah.
TT: The secret studies – so on and so forth. And the other thing about the early history is that nowadays, you don't know. Somebody can say they saw a UFO – well it could very well be our own technology.
DR: Yes. Well that's –
TT: You know – in 1947–?
DR: Yeah - very doubtful.
TT: It wasn't [our technology]
DR: Yes, yeah.
TT: So, that's the other problem – is that probably into the eighties and forward – I mean, once we developed stealth and all that stuff, – who knows now?
DR: Oh, that's right!
TT: I mean –
DR: Yeah, it could be ours now. Our science has developed so far.
TT: Yeah. You know, Jan Aldrich had done a study of just 1947.
DR: Yeah.
TT: Looking at –
DR: Yes.
TT: –and then sort of analyzing the reports. And, basically, in '47 everybody was seeing everything that people are seeing now.
DR: Yes.
TT: So that the phenomenon appeared "whole". You know what I mean? It didn't "build up" over of several decades.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: I mean, in '47–
DR: Exactly.
TT: –everything was being experienced that people were going to experience relative to the phenomenon for the next [unintelligible]
DR: Yes. I don't think our science had developed it that far, that what we were seeing was our own operation. It's a phenomenon without an answer to it. And, there's no question at all but what they occurred. Green fireballs – so many observations of 'em. And as far as I know, they were all flying horizontal to the Earth. So it's hard to find an answer to it.
TT: Yeah. And you wouldn't have – probably wouldn't observe a meteorite for two minutes.
DR: No, no. You gotta kinda throw that out, because it wouldn't be traveling the way the one that I saw was, which was certainly parallel.
TT: Yeah. Anyway, I'll send you some information. See, we're part of a group – a historical group. I'll send you – in the next months ahead I'll send you some information about the –
DR: Oh, I'd like that!
TT: – historical group.
DR: I would like that very much. I'm sure I would, Tom.
TT: Yeah, that will give you a better idea of what we're trying to do.
DR: Well, great. And now when you say where – Are you working with other people on this object (?) [project], huh?
TT: Yeah.
DR: And are you being financed by any organization?
TT: No, we're just doing it on our own.
DR: You're doing it on your own. Oh, yes.
TT: At this point. You know – hopefully the effort will generate some [unintelligible]. That's down the road. It takes – that's work in itself. [laughs]
DR: Yes. Well –
TT: It's mainly just a bunch of independent researchers that are trying to organize.
DR: Oh, yeah. Well, maybe all of you together –
TT: Yes.
DR: Now is Pflock – is he still interested in this and working on it?
TT: Yes.
DR: Is he?
TT: Yes.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: Well, he helped me set up the interview with Charles Moore and with you.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: Yeah, Karl's still is working on it. He's been working on particular cases.
DR: Oh, yeah.
TT: A Florida case and the Betty Hill case.
DR: Oh, yeah. Well, do you happen to have his address?
TT: Yeah, I do – out in the truck.
DR: I wonder if you could leave it with me?
TT: Sure.
DR: Looking in my files, I don't have his address in New Mexico, and I don't have his last report he sends [sent] to me.
TT: Oh, yeah.
DR: My sister may – my daughter may have it – I'm not sure. She was very interested in it. And uh, she was doing some work at her school along that line, and she, uh, might have it. But if not, I'd sure like to have his final report. I guess I can get it from him, probably.
TT: Yeah.
DR: Yeah.
TT: Um, okay. Well, thanks for the time and for the interview. I appreciate you took the time to do that.
DR: Well, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. I am very interested in the subject, and I'm –
TT: A lot of people are –
DR: [Laughs] I'm delighted that you're making such an effort to do something on it.
-----------------Official end to interview--------------
TT: Well, it's a whole group of people that are, too.
TT: Maybe that will help, you know.
DR: That's kind of a hobby with you, then, is it? Or would you call it a hobby?
TT: Yeah, well – that's all I can call it because it's not generating income – you know what I mean.
DR: Yes.
TT: But, you know – it's more like a passion.
DR: Yeah.
TT: You just kind of get drawn into it.
DR: Yeah. [chuckles]
TT: And you keep wondering: There's – there's gotta be some way to make sense out of this, you know what I mean? You just, you can't believe that it's – I'm sure it's just like LaPaz.
DR: [laughs] Yeah.
TT: It just drives you nuts!
DR: Yeah.
TT: Remember Jim McDonald? A University of Arizona scientist? Maybe – maybe you don't. He was involved in this in the sixties. He was just like LaPaz.
DR: Was he?
TT: Yeah, just – you know – passionate.
DR: [laughs] Oh, yes.
TT: So you gotta be careful, too.
DR: Now where is – when do you – Minn – Minnesota?
TT: Minnesota.
DR: Oh, yes. Now has there (sic) been any observations in that part of the country? Or are they mostly been in the southwest?
TT: Well, you know, '51. You know – Charles Moore worked for General Mills.
DR: Yeah.
TT: And you know General Mills is in Minneapolis. So at that time General Mills had an aeronautical division where they were – they were developing the balloons.
DR: Oh.
TT: The big Skyhooks.
DR: Oh, is that so?
TT: And the Moguls. Yeah, well I think they were developing the Skyhooks. So you know when Moore had his sighting in New Mexico, which was with General Mills. Well, they were – they were also launching the balloons up in Minnesota.
DR: Oh, is that so?
TT: And so there were a number of sightings related to observing the balloons.
DR: Yes.
TT: And objects would come in.
DR: Oh, yeah.
TT: In fact there was one with a man named Kaliszewski, in which there was ground observation of the object, radar, and then they were in a plane when they saw this object which came in and–
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: So, the General Mills guys had a bunch of sightings.
DR: Did they?
TT: Yeah.
TT: And Moore was part of that whole group.
DR: Oh, yeah.
TT: So you know those were some particularly good sightings because they were done by qualified observers – people who knew what a balloon was.
DR: Yes.
TT: You know – early '50s. There's been sightings in Minnesota, but I suspect that if you went back to the early '50s, you may find that a lot of those sightings were from those balloon guys. [amused.]
DR: [chuckles.] Oh, you're probably right.
TT: You know – reported in the paper.
DR: [Laughing] Yes.
TT: Right?
DR: [Laughing] Yeah. Oh, no question about it.
TT: They even admit that. In fact, I think Charlie Moore talks about the fact that their balloons were being reported as UFOs. He knew they were – they knew they were at the time.
DR: Oh, yes.
TT: But, you know, their projects were secret, so that they weren't out there–
DR: Yeah.
TT: You see.
DR: Yeah, there's some that have a logical answer. And then of course there's those other[s] that don't, and that's the ones that bothers us.
TT: Yeah, there's some cases that they don't, they don't have [unintelligible] – I mean, either the – either the guy saw that, what he's saying, or – or what, I don't know.
DR: Yeah.
TT: I mean, now the guy's not crazy, so what is it?
DR: [chuckles] Yeah. Well, the thing–
TT: Are we so limited that we would misperceive something like that?
DR: Yeah.
TT: See, that's what bugs me. It's like – I've seen a lot of things in my life, but I don't know if I've ever seen something that – you know what I mean? That I misperceive–
[End of tape recording.]
Transcribed by Candy Peterson, May 4, 2000.
Edited by Rod Brock, April 5, 2002
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